With June marking National Safety Awareness Month, we are honored to have the Director of Risk Resources at Acrisure, Paul Bragenzer, share his invaluable insights on balancing safety and productivity. We dive deep into the cultural shift needed to make safety more than just a compliance issue. Hear how understanding the "why" behind safety practices and fostering meaningful relationships can lead to a safer work environment. We also highlight the role of purpose and values in creating a successful safety culture, drawing lessons from companies like Alcoa Aluminum. This episode is packed with real-life examples and expert advice, making it essential listening for anyone passionate about modern workplace safety.
Ever wondered how we evolved from the perilous work environments of the 1930s to today's stringent safety standards? In our latest episode, we explore this evolution through the captivating lens of Mike Rowe's experiences on "Dirty Jobs." Rowe provocatively argues that putting safety first can sometimes lead to dangerous complacency, emphasizing instead the power of personal responsibility. Listen as we recount his gripping story aboard a crab boat in the Bering Sea and discuss how he believes safety should be prioritized.
With June marking National Safety Awareness Month, we are honored to have the Director of Risk Resources at Acrisure, Paul Bragenzer, share his invaluable insights on balancing safety and productivity. We dive deep into the cultural shift needed to make safety more than just a compliance issue. Hear how understanding the "why" behind safety practices and fostering meaningful relationships can lead to a safer work environment. We also highlight the role of purpose and values in creating a successful safety culture, drawing lessons from companies like Alcoa Aluminum. This episode is packed with real-life examples and expert advice, making it essential listening for anyone passionate about modern workplace safety.
Ever wondered how we evolved from the perilous work environments of the 1930s to today's stringent safety standards? In our latest episode, we explore this evolution through the captivating lens of Mike Rowe's experiences on "Dirty Jobs." Rowe provocatively argues that putting safety first can sometimes lead to dangerous complacency, emphasizing instead the power of personal responsibility. Listen as we recount his gripping story aboard a crab boat in the Bering Sea and discuss how he believes safety should be prioritized.
perspective. Perspective is spelled p e r s p e c t I v e. Perspective the 30 000 foot view perspective put on someone else's shoes. Perspective can also refer to the state of existing in space or one's view of the world perspective rea audio space or one's view of the world Perspective REA Audio.
Speaker 3:
Reemployability. Have you ever seen that picture from the 1930s of men eating lunch on a steel beam high above New York City? The photo's called, fittingly enough, Lunch Atop a Skyscraper, and the photographer is unknown. It was a publicity photo. 11 guys didn't normally eat lunch all in a row, dangling 850 feet off the ground, but what they did do was walk, lift, drill and hammer that high and higher off the ground, with no safety harness nets or anything we would consider standard today. In fact, prior to the creation of OSHA in the early 1970s, there was little done to create safe environments for workers. Now, fast forward to 2024. Some feel that we've become so safety conscious that it impedes our ability to get work done. The pendulum swings both ways. I found a video on YouTube from Mike Rowe, the guy from Dirty Jobs. He's been in the middle of some of the most dangerous work environments on the planet and this is his take.
Speaker 2:
You know what that guy knows? Well, actually he knows a great deal, but what he really knows is the importance of safety. You look around a place like this. You see it everywhere. Look at the sign up there as if there could be any doubt Safety first, always, always, always, over and over and over. But you want to hear the dirty truth. Safety is not really ever first. Safety generally, as best I can figure, is third.
Speaker 2:
The reason I believe safety should be third is that it's so important you can't really put it at number one, because if you put it at number one and say it over and over and over again, you start to get complacent. And this is what's happened to me over the last four or five years. I've broken fingers, fractured toes and cracked ribs and fused my own contact lenses to my eyes. Once and every single time I've hurt myself. It's always been in that fraction of a moment where I take my eye off the ball and I start to think that maybe somebody, somewhere, cares more about my well-being than me. It is always a mistake to let that happen, and the more banners you see reminding you of how important safety is for me anyway, the more complacent I become. So on the Dirty Jobs crew, we started to say safety. Third, just to remind you that ultimately it was on you, I'll tell you a story About three years ago, maybe four, I was on a crab boat called the Bountiful, up in the Bering Sea fishing for king crabs with those lunatics up there right, and we were about 200 miles off the coast of Russia.
Speaker 2:
The wind was blown about 40. The seas were easily 35 feet and the crew was out there working and I was out there with them, you know, trying not to get killed, and I went up on a stack of crab pots that were stacked on the back of the boat and I was helping unlash them and I was scared less. I mean very, very frightening, and eventually I just couldn't take it anymore. I scrambled down off the pots down to the deck and I went up to the wheelhouse and I went in and the captain is hunched over the wheel. He's doing his thing and the green water's coming over the bow and it's just so ridiculously hazardous. I looked at him and I said Cap, osha. And he looks at me and says OSHA, ocean. And we had a little laugh and I'm like no, seriously, I've been all over your boat. I don't see any signs about safety. I don't see any special guards or rails, or I mean, what's going on here? And he said son, I'm the captain of a crab boat. My job is not to get you home alive, my job is to get you home rich. You want to come home alive, that's on you. I got it In that moment I got it.
Speaker 2:
Nobody was looking out for me other than me. I spent every second on that boat and grabbing on to every single thing I could and not letting go. I put safety first, second, third, fourth, all the way down the list. I never took my eye off it. So it's not that we don't think safety is the most important thing. It's just that when you keep saying it's first, you got to wonder where everything else falls into place. Don't be that guy, be careful. Safety third, always in the top five anyway. That's the dirty truth.
Speaker 3:
So where's the middle ground? June is National Safety Awareness Month and we're super fortunate to have Paul Bragginser from AcroShare on the podcast to talk about how to incorporate a safe workplace. Have people actually not want to cut corners and get the work done?
Speaker 1:
National Safety Month is an initiative created and run by the National Safety Council. The council is a nonprofit agency with a congressional charter but is not administered by the United States government. June is National Safety Month and is designed to raise awareness of health and safety risks.
Speaker 3:
Paul Bragginser is the director of risk resources at Accresure, and Paul and I have been talking back and forth for a little bit over a year now. Paul Bragginser is the Director of Risk Resources at Accresure, and Paul and I have been talking back and forth for a little bit over a year now. I've been fortunate enough to be a part of some of the things that Accresure is doing and really think that the resources that they provided and Paul's expertise is really going to help us kind of understand some things that we're going to talk about in the next few minutes as we kind of, I guess, celebrate National Safety Awareness Month in June. So, paul, thanks for being on REA Audio and I appreciate you taking some time.
Speaker 4:
Oh, it's my pleasure, and thank you so much for the invitation to speak with you.
Speaker 3:
Of course. So, paul Accresure, tell me what do you do as Director of Risk Resources at Accresure, what are the risk resources available and what do you guys do?
Speaker 4:
What we do is assist clients of Accresure to improve their safety programming, their risk resource programming, so that, as an insurance broker, our goal is to help our clients be good risks to insurance carriers. So our goal is to help them to understand the principles of running a company in a safe manner so that they are not relying on insurance to cover incidences that then results in them having to pay more for their insurance and all the other negative things that go along with that.
Speaker 3:
So helping companies be safer and all the other negative things that go along with that, so helping companies be safer and so I played that video or the audio from the video from Mike Rowe prior to our conversation and I know you've looked at it and we talked a little bit about it and I think Mike's main idea of saying safety third was to kind of just raise some eyebrows right, because it's so unconventional to hear that and he tells some good stories in there. What was your take on that video and how do you think it relates to some of the things that you all are doing at Accrasure?
Speaker 4:
Yeah, that video was very interesting. The way that Mike tells his story, makes his point, was a different approach than what you would normally see, um, but I think, in the end, what he ultimately was trying to communicate was that safety is not about, uh, delegation or designation, it's not about compliance, it's not about following rules, uh, because that specific point where he talked about his conversation with the ship's captain steered in that direction that Mike was responsible for Mike's safety. And so, as far as how that all relates with what Acquisher is doing, that principle of safety being more of a cultural issue than a compliance issue is exactly what we strive to do. I have seen this in more than 40 years of helping companies avoid injuries and recover from the outcomes of injuries. For sure, outcomes of injuries, for sure.
Speaker 4:
Compliance-based programs will only get you so far, and now a compliance-based program is strictly an organization that relies on their rule book.
Speaker 4:
We've got all our safety rules and if you don't participate or follow these safety rules, then there's punishment.
Speaker 4:
And what I have seen personally and many of our other consultants have seen, is that the added rules without relationship equals rebellion, and so people, if they view your risk resource program and I think this is what Mike was trying to say as a list of rules. We're going to be so safety minded that we've got all these rules and we're going to tell you how to do your job, to work safely. That works as long as the person thinks that they're going to get caught. But the minute they think that they can do something they think is smarter, a shortcut, faster, or the emphasis is less just get the job done, then they're going to take that shortcut, knowing what they're supposed to do. But that right. There is the scenario where my experience over the last 40 some years is that the worst injuries that I've ever come across in the occupational setting almost always occur in a company that people know what they're supposed to do but the person chose to do something different for various reasons.
Speaker 3:
You know it's funny. He showed that picture of the sign safety first and I've seen you know signs in when I go get my car fixed in garages that say it's been this many days since we've had a work related injury and so there's always those reminders of safety. And we were kind of talking about this prior to. Recording was like you can have all the rules and you know what you have to do or what you're supposed to do. Tell me about the understanding, the why behind it. Why is it important for people to understand why we don't want to have a work related injury in X number of days or why we want to make safety the number one priority? What's the importance of the why?
Speaker 4:
The importance of the why is looking at again. What I tell people many times is save us two words in the English language, or what if? Save us two words in the English language or what if? Because when we're doing something we all are told, we all have rules that we are supposed to be living our life by. For example, anybody who drives a car knows that speed limits are posted and we're supposed to drive at those speed limits. How many of us do Well, when we think we're going to get caught if there's a police officer?
Speaker 4:
on the side of the road we're driving a speed limit, but the minute that we believe that we're in an area where we're not going to get caught, we might choose to go faster than the speed limit for personal reasons. So organizations that have safety rules again, rules without relationship equals rebellion People will follow those rules, but if they don't know why that rule exists, then it's just something that's in their way to get the job done. So every single time I've ever investigated a very serious injury or fatality, um, every single time the person uh, if they were still alive, was admitting, would admit, say you know what? I? I knew I wasn't supposed to do that, yeah, but I chose to do it because I was in a hurry, or you know, pick your reason. Whereas then the things that they talk about after the incident has occurred is the consequences of that injury. What's it going to mean? And you know, you can get as gruesome as you want with the people that have, you know, amputated limbs, significant spinal injuries, back injuries, injuries requiring shoulder surgery, brain injuries, all of the above. There's a consequence that many people don't stop and ask themselves am I willing to pay this price by taking this shortcut? What if this doesn't go right, and the thing about all the safety rules let's call them OSHA laws is that almost all of them came into being because somebody or a pattern of people got hurt. Right, they're not just there for no reason In his book. Start With why Simon Sinek talks about. You will only pursue something with passion if you know why you're doing it and you know a very good story on this.
Speaker 4:
One Worked with an organization many years ago, prior to initiating with this client. Three years before I started working with them, they had one of their employees get killed on the job, and so when I got there and would go out to the field to talk with the workers that are on a project, you know, typical question would be hey, you know what are you guys working on? And they'd tell me what they were doing and I'd say oh, what hazards do you see here today that you're concerned about? And a typical response was you know, well, it was rather colorful many times with metaphors, but they would say we're not a safe company, so we don't pay attention to that safety stuff. And when I would ask them well, okay, well, what do you mean? Why do you say that? Well, if we were a safe company just for a generic name, bob wouldn't have died. This was a smaller company. Everybody knew who Bob was, and so they would tell me stories about yeah, I was there the day Bob died. I knew Bob. My wife still knows Bob. Bob's a widow. One guy actually told me I'm the one that found Bob. You know, one guy actually told me I'm the one that found Bob.
Speaker 4:
And so what it showed was that this company was just swimming in regret. These people were swimming in regrets and so safety had no meaning to them, even though they had a very complete safety rulebook, safety manual. But their safety record was terrible even after Bob died, because the point was driven home that we're not a safe company because if we were, bob wouldn't have died. So we worked with them and came up with something that everybody agreed. This was something that they agreed that this is us a safety purpose statement that said being safe on purpose equals no regrets. And then everybody in the company agreed that that was very authentic for them, because they admitted that they had deep regrets that their friend had died, and so that company following now with a new purpose, same rules in place, they were able to. Well, the whole time that we were working with them two and a half three years. They had no lost time injuries in that whole period of time and the injury rate plummeted because people were now doing things on a purpose rather than out of compliance.
Speaker 3:
And it's interesting that you tell the story, that story, because I, you know, I was thinking as as you were talking. So, like I do, handyman stuff around the house, right.
Speaker 3:
And I just remodeled my bathroom and I installed new switches and I knew I should turn off the electrical before I install the switches, right, but you know it's going to save me some time, right? So more times than once I have hit two wires together and created a spark and gone oh, I shouldn't have done that, maybe I'll go turn the breaker off. So then I go turn the breaker off. Fortunately I didn't incur any serious injury from that, right. My dad, when I was a little kid we lived up North and he was snowblowing the driveway and that real heavy snow that gets clogged up in the in the snowblower had clogged up the chute and he turned the snowblower off and took his hand and pushed it, pushed the snow down into the shoot and the auger was still cycling through, it had not stopped and he nipped off the tips of his fingers. He never did that again, right, and I never hooked up a plug after I got those sparks, before I shut things off.
Speaker 3:
It seems like sometimes people actually you can't just tell them the consequence. They have to experience some kind of consequence before they change their behavior. And in that story you just told, it's interesting to me that having Bob die wasn't enough to make people change their behaviors. There was more to it than that. Is that something that you see when you work with companies, that that it's not just the experience that they have, but it's gotta be a kind of a common agreement to what has to be done? I mean, that's almost like a psychology type of stuff that you're doing there.
Speaker 4:
Yeah yeah, kind of, I guess it is. You know, a lot of these concepts really came together. There was a book I don't remember the authors right now, but it was called the Purpose Revolution and in there they talked about oh even in Jim Collins' Good to Great, all of the companies that just really exceed in anything always are operating on an identified, agreed purpose. There's a value there. They're saying this is important. So one of the things that we do with our clients is help them identify a safety purpose statement. Let's find out. Okay, guys, we can give you all the templates you want and follow all the rules, but if rules were enough to keep your people injured, then nobody with a rule book would ever have any injuries, and that's just not the case.
Speaker 4:
So, again, I think that's what Mike was talking about in that video was that it's? It's a bigger. It's bigger than just saying, okay, we're going to focus on safety, um, and what that typically means is we're going to make sure we have all these rules and we're going to enforce these rules, whereas if you read any of the stories of companies that have drastically succeeded, using safety as a leader like I think it was Alcoa Aluminum, that whole company the gentleman said we're going to be the best aluminum company in the world because we'll be the safest. And they laughed at him. But that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 4:
But it wasn't because they were following the rules. It's because people said you know what? This is a purpose and we're going to abide by that purpose and the rules will take care of themselves. And we're going to abide by that purpose and the rules will take care of themselves. Rules will never drive a culture, but cultures will improve rule compliance, I guess, if you want to say it that way. So that's a key, key component that we work with and really what we've seen is that companies that don't do that you can, you can get. You can become safer. If you just don't know what you're supposed to do and all, and then you apply some guidance with safety rules, yeah, you'll become somewhat safer. But if what you're after is that world-class safety result where people are staying safe on purpose, that's not going to come from a rule book. That's going to come from. This is who we are. This isn't what we do.
Speaker 3:
And culture change is never easy. It's always an uphill battle and you know many companies I've been at where culture change was part of. You know the process. That, where culture change was part of, you know the process. You know I've been through from the beginning to the end, right, and and seeing that you know if people don't want to get on the bus, maybe they don't need to be on this bus, right? I mean, sometimes that's what it takes. So if I'm a safety professional listening to this right now and I understand that I'm at a place where we are following a rule book and that culture is something that needs to be changed, what are some of the things that I can do to at least start that process, to get people to understand that it's not just a rule book, that it's a culture shift that needs to happen?
Speaker 4:
There's many things that an organization can do. We spend a lot of time analyzing and evaluating a company and their culture and all the components of their risk control program to help them identify where their greatest opportunities for improvement are. But some of the things is just recognize you're not going to do it alone. You will not create a culture within an organization by yourself. Again, remember rules without relationship equals rebellion. So it's all it is going to be. All about relationships and people need to see, well, the risk control person as a resource.
Speaker 4:
The minute that and I knew this almost instinctively was that if all I am is the safety police, I failed. Because as soon as I'm not there, just like driving down the highway, as soon as if the person thinks that you know, sees a police and the median point in their direction, they know that they might get a ticket. Or if they're speeding, they will get a ticket. But that means then, if that same mentality is on my job site, that when I show up, everyone's acting safe and as soon as I leave, they go back to doing what you're. You're just asked.
Speaker 4:
It's going to be a disaster yeah uh, and you'll get unintended and very unfortunate outcomes. So one thing is just recognize that it is a relationship, uh, and you can't do it alone. Uh, this is where I'm a huge proponent of safety committees. You've got to get people involved in change, otherwise it's again just trying to push a car up a hill by yourself. It's just not going to happen. So, incorporating that whole concept of a safety committee where it is a true committee and we teach people how to have successful safety committees Cause I've seen some that are nothing more than a frustration, and but there's reasons for that but effective committees will spread a culture, help spread a culture over time. Realize it's not going to happen overnight, but you really do have to get down to the nuts and bolts of it is. Why is this important? Why do we care?
Speaker 4:
A company that we were working with was really struggling with their safety program and they couldn't understand why all these rules and things that they were trying to engage in their workers with weren't working. And so we talked about the idea of a purpose statement, and they happened to be in a very a company that stressed family and had a very family oriented workforce, and so the minute they tied those two together, that you know we work safe, so that you go home to your family at night and you can provide. As soon as people put that connection together in their head, it was like instant change, because they didn't see it as well. I'm only following this rule because my boss is telling me and then I'm going to take this shortcut so I can get more production. They're not thinking oh wait a minute, what happens if this doesn't go right, if I break my leg or whatever, and I can't provide for my family? I don't like that outcome. Therefore, I will make a different choice.
Speaker 3:
It sounds like, and it's very similar to what we tell insurance adjusters when we talk about the re-employability program. And you got to look at the person on that spreadsheet, not just as a number on a spreadsheet, but as a human being. And if you can look at the safety perspective not just that we need to save money on our workers' comp claims, but more like listen, I really want my human beings that work for me to get home to their family and if you can instill that culture into people, into a company, it's going to make a world of difference. And so it's about humanizing what it is that you're doing or what we're doing on a daily basis, and it makes such a difference it sounds like Absolutely.
Speaker 4:
We've all been a part of or seen. You know those organizations that just focus on the compliance. You know, again, like Mike Rowe said, safety is number one and if you're not safe, boy, there's going to be hell to pay. It just doesn't work, because people, ultimately you could be saying that on one hand, and your unintended message that you're telling to the group is you're saying safety's first, but really production's first, and all you care about is so many you know units I get out the door today. Therefore, you know I'm going to do it. What is that that's saying? I can only hear what I see. So if I see you doing something different than what you're telling me, I'm going to go with what I see.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I mean. That's true with raising kids, that's true with being in the safety world, it's true with running a business. Right, it's actions speak louder than words, right? So make your actions count, paul. If people want more information on what you do or what Acquishire does, what's the best way for them to get ahold is?
Speaker 4:
email, and my email is P-B-R-A-G-E-N-Z-E-R at Acrisure A-C-R-I-S-U-R-Ecom.
Speaker 3:
Well, paul, I'll make sure to put your email address in the show notes so people can just click on it to reach out to you if they have questions or want to investigate. Uh, you know working with acrasure and I just want to say thank you. Uh, I always learn a lot when I do these podcasts and I never quite know, when we're jumping into something we've never done a podcast on before, um, how it's going to turn out, um. But I think, you know, having such knowledgeable guests such as yourself on really kind of opens up the thought process for people and I really, really appreciate your time. I love the fact that we're all bringing it back to treating humans like human beings and, as we make that number one, there's so many good things that can happen. So I do appreciate your time, paul. Thank you so much so.
Speaker 4:
I do appreciate your time, Paul. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you, Todd, and right back at you, you made it seem you didn't make it seem like an interview. You asked great questions that really keep the thought process moving. So thank you so much.
Speaker 1:
Thanks, paul. Safety is usually defined as the state of being safe, freedom from the occurrence or risk of injury, danger or loss.
Speaker 3:
Thanks for listening to REA Audio. Please make sure to follow us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts. We appreciate you. Have a great rest of your week. We'll see you next time.
