ReAudio: ReAssess Your Workers Comp Toolbox
ReInvent your Workers' Comp Perspective!
Things change. In fact, that’s one of the most sure things in life. Haven’t we learned that these past few years? ReAudio has changed too. Starting as a way to provide tools and value to our partners in the Workers' Compensation Industry, we have changed into a human interest podcast, primarily interviewing people who have overcome adversity to achieve success, however, that’s defined by them. Because change is a permanent reality, ReAudio is hoping to help you see our industry a little differently. Through storytelling and exploring different perspectives, Season 4 will guide you to ReImagine your Workers' Comp ReAlity.
Winner of the BLOOM Excellence Awards 2023 Podcast of the Year
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ReAudio: ReAssess Your Workers Comp Toolbox
The Role of Gratitude in Workers' Compensation
How can gratitude reshape the challenging world of workers’ compensation? In this episode, we sit down with Debbie Hammer, a seasoned claims consultant and AVP at Woodruff Sawyer, to explore how cultivating gratitude rebuilds trust among stakeholders. We tackle mistrust, the pandemic's lasting effects, and the surge in litigation, uncovering practical strategies like gratitude journaling and face-to-face communication. Join us as we delve into transformative insights and actionable methods to foster collaboration and create a more positive work environment.
Some research shows that gratitude can positively impact trust. Explore the resources below:
- Gratitude Journals: https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/can_gratitude_make_our_society_more_trusting
- Thank you: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/parenting-translator/202409/research-finds-that-hearing-thank-you-really-matters-for-parents
- How Gratitude Builds Trust: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-gratitude-builds-trust-your-team-sonya-shelton/
perspective. Perspective is spelled p e r s p e c t I v e. Perspective the 30 000 foot view perspective put on someone else's shoes. Perspective can also refer to the state of existing in space or one's view of the world perspective rea audio space or one's view of the world Perspective REA Audio.
Speaker 2:Reemployability. Now I'm sure you wouldn't be surprised to learn that there is a lack of trust in this country. People don't trust others the way they used to. People certainly don't trust institutions the way they used to, and people are not trusting their employers the way they used to either. This lack of trust negatively affects our ability to do business and prevents us from living the most fruitful lives we possibly can.
Speaker 2:So how do we fix this? Well, like everything else in life, it's a process that includes many pieces, but since we're coming up on Thanksgiving, we're going to focus on one of the pieces proven to increase trust. It's gratitude. Yep, according to some recently published studies, one of which is in the Journal of Personality and Individual Differences, by being grateful you can develop greater trust for others. And how does this translate into the work comp world? Well, this week we're going to talk to Debbie Hammer. She's a specialty claims consultant and assistant vice president at Woodruff Sawyer. She'll share a little bit of the why and the how behind building trust and how it helps everyone involved in the work comp environment.
Speaker 1:Gratitude is usually defined as the quality or feeling of being grateful or thankful.
Speaker 2:So, debbie Hammer, what we're going to talk about today, I think, is you're uniquely qualified to talk about, especially since some of the preliminary discussions we had rolling into this. So thanks again for being with us and, if you don't mind, just kind of refresh everybody what it is that you do as a specialty claims consultant with Woodruff Sawyer.
Speaker 3:Sure. Thank you, todd, and thank you for having me on your show again. I appreciate being here and, yeah, it's been a long time. A lot has changed. So just a little bit about my background.
Speaker 3:I have been with Woodruff Sawyer for going on 19 years.
Speaker 3:I've been in the claims world and workers' comp claims for about 35 years, started off, actually as a vocational rehabilitation counselor, where I was really an employee advocate helping injured workers get back to work, and then I made myself, you know, kind of go into the claims world when Voc Rehab went out, california did away with that and so I became a claims adjuster and worked my way up to supervising.
Speaker 3:I handled catastrophic claims and ultimately I ended up over here on the broker side with Woodruff Sawyer being a claim consultant and what I do is I am a claim liaison for our clients. I'm a go-between between our clients, which are our employers, our employers who we set up workers' comp coverage for with various carriers and their claims adjuster. So I kind of like to see myself as a peacemaker. I provide claims, technical expertise and I oversee the claims. But we're going to be talking, I know, about trust and gratitude today in the claims process and I really see myself as a peacemaker these days and really am motivated to try to bring people together in coming up with claim solutions that work for everybody.
Speaker 2:That's great, you know. Blessed are the peacemakers, right? I mean, we're actually, as we record this, we're rolling out of the recent election and I think a lot of people were a little bit on edge, really, regardless of what side you're on. Just overall, things seemed very tense, and I know that they still are, of course, but I think we rolled through the election, at least in a much calmer way than I think a lot of people anticipated. And you know, I think a lot of what made people feel uneasy is this easy?
Speaker 2:Is this what seems like a continued degradation of trust within people, you know, families, within businesses, and that all really rolls into all the things that you deal with on a daily basis, and I deal with in workers' compensation. That lack of trust seems to be everywhere and you know, as we were talking about, because we're rolling into Thanksgiving now, right, so we wanted to see if there was some kind of a way that we could bring this lack of trust into gratitude. But I'd like to ask you first, tell us a little bit about what you see as that growing lack of trust kind of in the workers' comp world. Like, talk about what you're seeing.
Speaker 3:Sure. So unfortunately, we're starting off with the negatives. I know we'll get to the positives, but I really am seeing, on all sides of the fence, more litigation, I'm seeing more retaliatory claims, there's a lot of anger and frustration. I'm seeing people spin their wheels and a lot of burnout, and definitely all of these things are causing a degradation of trust in the workers' comp system as a whole and between all the different people who are caught up in it, specifically employers, injured workers, claims adjusters. There's others as well. Remember, we also have medical providers and nurse case managers, attorneys on both sides, so there's usually no one person or factor that is responsible for when claims go sideways. There's many things that control how a claim file goes. There's the adjuster, the treating doctor, there's other medical specialists and more complex claims. Then there's the employers, attorneys, judges and the employees, laws and the complexities in workers' comp are really multifactorial, I would say.
Speaker 3:But unfortunately, what people do often is they blame and they look for a scapegoat. I think it's easier to do this mentally because it helps people simplify a complex situation and we have a lot of those in workers' comp but it's really no one's fault and the finger pointing is only going to further erode trust. So you know, I'm seeing an issue between employers and their adjusters. In that relationship there's sometimes a lack of responsiveness by the adjuster, by either the adjuster not replying timely or not really answering the questions being asked. Maybe they're being evasive, they're not being thorough and there's different reasons for that Sometimes the adjuster's caseload is too high.
Speaker 3:Reasons for that Sometimes the adjuster's caseload is too high. Sometimes the adjuster needs more technical claims training or more customer service training. Other times it's time management or all of that on the adjuster side. And then there's sometimes challenges on the employer side as well. The employer may have certain expectations, for example, about how quickly or how often the adjuster should respond and give updates. If the expectation is within the hour or if it's weekly updates, it's probably not going to happen because in most cases very little changes in a claim file week to week. So the demand for too frequent updates is just going to be counterproductive. But regardless for an employer, not having a claim go the way they think it's supposed to go, whether the expectation is reasonable or not, decreases their trust and confidence in the adjuster's ability to manage the claims. So then what happens is the employer puts pressure on the adjuster, sometimes micromanaging them, without even being aware of it, but this in turn leads to adjuster burnout and the adjuster then will mistrust the employer. So again, the problem often is a combination from both the adjuster side and the employer side.
Speaker 3:The adjuster needs training and then the employer also needs some level setting, and then there's also a deterioration of trust that my team is seeing between injured workers and their employers, and there's other factors that contribute to this. Some are involving lack of understanding, again on both sides, about what workers' comp is, what benefits are covered, what is the process, what are the laws. And you know we don't expect injured workers to have a technical understanding because they're lay people, but we do expect that HR leaders would have some technical knowledge and unfortunately it's not always the case nowadays, because HR managers often come from non-work comp backgrounds, you know, like payroll or accounting, and while they may be well-versed in other employee benefits, they often lack experience in workers' comp. So what happens is when people don't understand something, they will fill in the gaps with assumptions, and those assumptions are often unchecked and faulty and they create misunderstandings and relationship conflicts'm breaking down the mistrust, breaking down trust.
Speaker 3:Um. So another problem I'll say one more problem is turnover and staffing shortages. We're seeing it especially on the claims adjusting side, but it's really everywhere, including on the HR side. This is creating delays in response times. So the injured workers aren't feeling the love, they're losing faith in both their adjuster and their employer. And I think what makes this problem worse is the increased sense of entitlement and urgency among younger generations. That's a whole, separate subject.
Speaker 2:I know, let's watch that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know there's, and then like one more thing about turnover is when there is a lot of turnover it doesn't allow time to form strong trust bonds. So it's really all a vicious circle of mistrust.
Speaker 2:It sounds like most of what you're talking about. You know it's funny when we were talking about mistrust at the outset. You know, obviously I think when you think of mistrust at least when I do within the workers comp world I think mistrust between the injured worker and the insurance company right, that's like the number one, like oh, they're trying to not pay me what is owed to me, right, and that's like the, that's like the original line of mistrust. But when you brought up employers and adjusters and employees and employers, that to me gets a little bit deeper into. It seems almost like it all comes down to communication, into. It seems almost like it all comes down to communication, right. I mean obviously here at re-employability. There's a lot of moving pieces in what we do with regards to placing injured workers into nonprofits and from a sales perspective. One of the things I've learned here is it is better to manage expectations on the front end than it is to try to fix things on the back end.
Speaker 2:So, even from a sales perspective, I would rather be upfront and transparent to a prospective client and explain to them what this really is and what it really isn't and let them make the decision.
Speaker 2:If they want to move forward with it, then Because I would rather you be satisfied knowing that and my experience has been most people when you just communicate with them and say, listen, you know, maybe not in these words, but hey, I'm a human being, we are imperfect people and this is what we can do for you. Although there may sometimes be hurdles, people understand that because it puts us all in the same place. Right, I am not perfect and nobody here is, and I really like having this conversation because anybody hearing this just realizes if I can just be a real human being to another real human being on the outset, a lot of times that'll overcome some of this trust. Have you mentioned or have you noticed that a lot of this decline in trust has it been kind of since COVID? It feels like COVID kind of just put a wrench in our machine somehow and as we came out of it, things just didn't boot up properly. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:It makes a lot of sense and absolutely I think that trust erosion is one of the casualties of the pandemic. We are four plus years out from that first shelter in place and I don't think people want to talk about the pandemic anymore. It's like the elephant in the room now. But there are ongoing residual effects in many areas of life and one of those areas is workers' comp and insurance.
Speaker 3:You know, one of the increases or one of the problems is an increase in litigation, and what I've seen happen is my theory is that the reason why there's more litigation now in comp is because during the pandemic, the shelters caused many people to be out of work, with less workers, there were less injuries, so applicant attorney firms were losing money, they were losing business and when things started opening up again, they had to recoup their losses. So they increased their marketing budgets and they started telling injured people, injured workers, that they needed to have an attorney represent them in their workers' comp claim, which is simply not true. No one needs to have an attorney represent them, which is simply not true. No one needs to have an attorney represent them. So that's one area that I think has been directly impacted by the pandemic. Another area is remote work. Employees who are working remotely aren't interacting with their managers as much.
Speaker 3:And I know that employers have made efforts to replace in-person interaction with virtual interaction, but I don't think it's been consistent and it hasn't been enough. So we know that behind a screen is impersonal and we know that building and maintaining trust in relationships requires regular communication and face-to-face time is always better. I think that more workers are feeling isolated and social disconnection can make people suspicious. I like to call it Twilight Zone paranoia that's the name that came up for that.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. You got to copyright that and I think that breeds mistrust.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does. One of the things we run into is, I can recall before the pandemic, we would go into a carrier or a TPA's office and there would be 20, 30 adjusters there and we'd bring them lunch and we'd do a refresher course as to what our program is and how it can better them and better their clients. And we would have interaction. And I could see the guy that was up in the right-hand corner on his phone while I was doing my presentation. And so there's ways, as a presenter, that you can bring people in and be more creative and fun with your presentation to hopefully engage people and get them to understand the benefits of what you're doing.
Speaker 2:And when you're on a Zoom call, I've done Zoom or Teams presentations for hundreds of people and you don't know if that person is there or not because nobody's got their screens on, or if they do, you know who knows? But nothing will ever replace shaking somebody's hand and introducing yourself. And maybe I'm just an old guy, but I do not believe that we can go 100% like what we're doing right now. I would much rather be in the room with you, debbie, having this conversation and meeting your folks and those things. You're absolutely right. I think that interaction is key to building trust, for sure.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:One of the things that, as we lead into some other tools that people can use to help build that trust. And again, one of the things I've identified is you know I can't make you trust me, but I can do a better job at trying to trust you better. Right, so I can control what I can control, and part of what I can control is some tools that I can do to to increase my level or ability to trust other people. And one of those things, again as we go into Thanksgiving, is is gratitude, which, believe it or not, there are some studies that actually show that, by doing gratitude lists, those types of things help you become more trustful to the people that you're interacting with, whether it's family people or if it's people within business. Have you had any experience with gratitude and developing trust with your clients?
Speaker 3:For sure, and gratitude is actually one of my favorite things to talk about, actually one of my favorite things to talk about. I have a journal that I write in every day and it's one of the first things I do in the morning. Actually, I'm not even kidding, I have a gratitude journal and I find that that is really helpful for me, and I do think that when an individual can reflect on what they're grateful for, they can become more trusting in general of people and society. You know, gratitude and trust are both positive emotions, so naturally they will flow from each other in alignment. But I also think that it's difficult to have gratitude for something or someone if you don't already have trust in the system or person you were trying to be grateful for. So I think that building trust is a prerequisite, or at least very important, to genuinely developing a sense of gratitude.
Speaker 3:Gratitude and I think that this is the situation we are in with the many different relationships and players in the workers' comp system, all the ones we've been talking about I think that there's also prerequisites to building trust. So you know the importance of regular interaction like we talked about, facetime is important Responsiveness and being timely and thorough in responsiveness. And then, you know, to your point, setting clear and reasonable expectations. And I agree with you wholeheartedly, it's all about positive communication, you know, and I think that the feelings of gratitude and trust come with reciprocity. I think that if I appreciate you, chances are you probably appreciate me too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, you know, and it's funny, I've tried. I'm going to be completely honest. I have tried to do gratitude journals in the morning. I think my longest stretch was maybe two or three weeks and my problem is that I get to a point where I feel like I'm putting the same things down all the time and I don't get deep enough into it.
Speaker 2:And what I have found is, when a lot of these things stem from conversations, I'm so grateful for my dogs, because if it weren't for my dogs, my wife and I would not take evening walks almost every evening, right? So when the dogs force us to take a walk together, we have conversations, and a lot of times those conversations are about things that we're dealing with on a daily basis at our work and things, and and I'll come to her and ask her you know, what do you think about this? And she'll ask me what do you think about that? And it forces me to put myself in the other person's shoes when it's difficult for her to do that, and she does the same thing for me, and we're able to help give a perspective that maybe neither one of us had seen from that other person. So I mean, I'm super grateful for that.
Speaker 2:And it's those little things that when I'm sitting down to make my gratitude list that I'm going, you know, maybe I need to sit back a little bit more and realize those little things on a daily basis that really impact what your outlook and perspective is for the rest of the day. Right, what are talk a little bit about some. So obviously you're interacting with employers and you're kind of that. You're kind of the bridge or the glue between the employer and the carriers and TPAs. Are you actively involved in brokering peace or brokering trust or helping others understand the perspectives of the other party? How does that work with what you do?
Speaker 3:Well, first of all, I really like that term or phrase broker of trust, broker of peace.
Speaker 2:There you go. I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to take that one, yeah.
Speaker 3:So for sure on all sides. And I really do think it starts with respect, recognizing our shared humanity it sounds kind of goofy but I think it's really true and then positive communication. And you can't really have that without having the respect and the shared humanity concept and all of that, the shared humanity concept and all of that. And then it's clear communication. I think that kind and clear communication is the key. Let's see some of my tips and tricks around building better communication and trust.
Speaker 3:I think education is a big one and at Woodruff Sawyer we do a Workers' Comp 101 presentation covering the basics for our clients, at least annually. Sometimes we do that more often. We also hold webinars on specific topics like legislative changes, those things. We try to make education and information a part of our claim reviews, where we're not just talking about the status of individual claims, we're clarifying general legal issues and processes. We're clarifying understandings of our clients and what we need to clarify more for them, giving realistic estimates for certain actions to be completed. You know people need to know that workers' comp isn't a bullet train. It's more like a slow kiddie train zigzagging along through the park and it's not a great thing, but it's our reality and we have to accept that and do the best we can. It takes time for injured workers to get medical appointments set up, it takes time to get the reports back from the physicians and it takes time for the work comp boards to schedule hearings and approve settlements.
Speaker 3:So again, all we can do is take control of what we can and be as proactive as we can, and I think that education and information do help create realistic expectations, which then builds trust possible. I am honest with my clients about options and strategies. If a client makes a request and I don't see the request as reasonable, I will tell them so and I'll explain why. You know we're not here to sugarcoat and tell people what they want to hear or make promises that can't be kept In the long run. That won't go well for anybody and it's just going to break down trust In the long run. That won't go well for anybody and it's just going to break down trust. So I think that people want honesty, even when it's not the answer that they're looking for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think I'll add on to that.
Speaker 2:I think asking really, really good questions is key in helping to develop that as well.
Speaker 2:Not only does it help you to better understand the position of the person that you're talking to, it also shows empathy and it shows that you care and that you want to know more.
Speaker 2:And it's super, super important, even if you're an adjuster and you work with a lot of construction companies and you've heard it all from every construction company before. Right, ask the questions, even if you think you're going to know the answer, because chances are, every once in a while there's going to be something new that kind of piques your interest. And if you can ask that question and repeat the answer back and dig a little bit deeper, it shows your client, it shows the injured worker, it shows the doctor that you are paying attention and that you do care about their needs, and then you're going to do what you can do to meet those needs. Even if you're not going to be able to provide everything that they want, at least you're showing empathy and transparency and care. And it sounds so easy, but it comes down to one human being talking to another human being and being grateful for the opportunity that we have to serve each other.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 3:I think that as brokers and consultants, we need to be leaders and role models, and we're the ones who are setting the tone in meetings and interactions. So the better the relationship between the employer and their carrier from the beginning and the more trust established early on, the less likely disagreements will occur. So I think we as consultants are in a position to nurture these positive relationships. And definitely back to your point about just checking in making sure everybody understands and is on the same page and you know, seeing what needs to be clarified, what information people still need, what questions do people still have, and seeking to answer those questions. I think we move so quickly through claim reviews. It's all rapid fire, it's a lot of abbreviation and lingo and we're not checking for understanding as often as maybe we used to in the past and as often as we should. Those things are very important and soliciting feedback from people to make sure their voices are heard and do they have any special requests that can be accommodated.
Speaker 2:Yep, little things make such a big difference. Debbie, if anybody's listening that has further questions or would want to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do that?
Speaker 3:People can email me at dhammer, at woodruffsawyercom or my number 415-878-2476. And you can always Google us on Woodruff Sawyer and find us there. Terrific.
Speaker 2:I'm going to put the links to some of these studies that I found that kind of relate gratitude with building trust, If anybody's interested in looking at it. It's interesting stuff and it's things that we can control, and that's what I love, because there's a lot of things I can't. So, Debbie, it's been really, really nice to talk to you again. Let's not go two years.
Speaker 3:Definitely we need more frequent interaction. Todd.
Speaker 2:Yes, for sure, for sure, and you have a great Thanksgiving. It was nice to see you again.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. You too, todd, take care.
Speaker 2:Alexa, what's your favorite thing to do on Thanksgiving?
Speaker 1:I can't eat or drink, but I'm happy to serve up a plate of food jokes for you. One time I ate a rainbow. It was delicious but light.
Speaker 2:Thanks for listening to REA Audio. Please make sure to follow us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts. We appreciate you. Have a great rest of your week. We'll see you next time.
